This is another musing by me. Something to spur debate or simply get some ideas hopefully flowing.

I told Wyndeleth that I was playing "Planescape: Torment" (a very good RPG once put out by TSR). Well, I have gotten pretty far into the game, and have been fighting the monsters beneath the Clerk's Ward (the upper-level part of Sigil). What really kicked the rear-ends of my party were Larva. Now, being a 1ed person, I know of Larva as 1HD denizens of the evil planes. After I finally got over the fact that my characters were being killed by 1HD monsters -- well, okay, in the game they are NOT 1HD monsters -- I began thinking about Larva in my own game.

Larva, Manes, Lemures -- these were all easy fights, although for a couple you needed +1 magic weapons (which made fighting them even easier). Moving through the planes is deadly however, so most parties only encountered these monsters as Wandering Monsters, or somehow rationalized as special encounters in certain scenarios. A low level party really did not survive moving through the planes, and this made Larva, Manes, and Lemures as only minions to be slaughtered or avoided in real planar adventures.

I thus began thinking that Larva are probably better suited for high HD. This would make them actually suited for the type of campaigns where they would be encountered. Since they are the raw material for demons and devils to devour - OR ADVANCE, they could gain character levels.

My campaign is moving up in levels, and the storylines becoming a little more esoteric. I really have not introduced planar travel, although some planar monsters have come in as odd NPCs. When I finally do present a planar scenario, having Larva, Manes, and Lemures as 1HD monsters will again make them bothersome cannon fodder, so I believe that introducing them as 3-5HD monsters with a few having little advances might be more realistic.

I am tossing this out as a thought, and await any other comments or observations.

My take on this is that any of these 'least' planar creatures are denied casual hd advancement by the power that be. It undermines the advancement of one creature to another stronger creature the lower planes typically utilizes. While games often present least-mob encounters in terms of groups, really, they could be used in numbers so vast that they effectively become environmental effects, helping more powerful planar beings by affecting positioning, halting advancement, etc. of enemy forces.

I'd say if you want to use 5hd beings, use existing 5hd planars instead of just making the least versions more powerful.

That is a good argument, Etoc, except that it ignores the facts of those already 'advanced' monsters. That 5HD planar monster (as a suggestion, and I again note that most planar monsters are beyond 5HD) is not just a more powerful 1HD monster. That 5HD planar monster has a tweak that makes it potentially much more powerful. What I have been known to do is take a 5HD monster and ignore some of its special qualities to bring it back down to a normal level.

One such monster is a Kyton. Those things are DEADLY. They are only 8HD, and the 3edMM rates them at only a CR6, but I can -- and have seen numerous other DMs do -- wipe out parties with them. Another is actually a Quasit. Play those little demons with a little preparation, and you can hand out a new character sheets. Planar campaigns are fun, but if the DM puts in a little maliciousness in the planning the party will be a memory.

That is what I am attempting to say. I believe planar adventures SHOULD be only for the experienced (beyond 7th level) characters. Thus, planar monsters, even the minor ones, should be set to challenge those of such levels. By posting this, I however am opening my belief to those of others.

I didn't mean to pose my comment as an argument, and my response was towards you specifically saying high hd characters. Sure, low and mid-level groups could be killed off with groups of bodak, kyton and other overpowered planars. I would think that an average group of high-level characters could handle encounters with these mobs or escape without suffering too many casualties.

I don't know why you thought I ignored the special attacks/abilities of the planar mobs, when my example implied that even the weakest of lower-plane monsters, such as larvae, exist in such numbers that even they could wipe out a group of high level characters, without a trick.

In fact, I agree that those monsters should be used for higher level characters, I just didn't see the need for boosting their hd/level to do so, and explained why I thought that. I mean, if you want higher lvl mobs, use higher level mobs. If you want least versions to be a problem for high level characters, there's nigh infinite numbers of them so that you can, as they are.

I don't see anything wrong with boosting their hd, mind you, I just don't see why you'd bother, unless it was part of the plot of that game. As dm, you can always control the numbers of monsters the party has to deal with.

The set HDs of monsters is something I never liked. I can understand it in some cases, but like in all aspects of life there are always variants of everything. Maybe your average Larva is 1HD but there should be some that have more or even less. Survival of the fittest and all that jazz.

The lower planes wouldn't be the lower planes if there weren't thousands of writhing larvae herded by a nighthag every once in a while.

The PCs I DM turn aside every time.

Don't larva have a nasty poison? Paralysis, maybe?

And i may be wrong, but i think that Lemures (and several other lesser fiends) can gate in others, turning an "easy fight" into a "RUNNNNNNN!" situation.

I have a hard time imagining higher HD larva, manes, etc. They ARE fodder.

This book is an excellent resource for all things fiendish, if you can get a hold of it:

Faces of Evil: The Fiends